The Destiny of God

Several years ago, Chicago saw a rash of young children killed by stray bullets. One evening I was dining with a friend and a female friend of his and out discussion turned to a seven year-old girl that was killed by a stray bullet while she sat in her bedroom. The young lady stated that there is nothing we can do because it was God’s will for that little girl to die. I had and still have issues with this statement.

When dealing with tragic events, it is comforting to hear that enduring the crisis is part of God’s plan. It absolves us from having to reason with the circumstances behind the event and allows us to focus on our grief. We accept that there may be a purpose or a plan beyond our comprehension and by enduring these tragic times, we will come to a better understanding of God’s will.

My response to the young lady that it was not God’s plan for that young girl to die. Her death was the consequences of a young man acting outside of God’s will. Her death served no other purpose than to illuminate the evil that exists around us. Some say that a tragic death is God’s way of bringing us closer to him. But if this were the case, would it not make Jesus’ sacrifice irrelevant?

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 12:6

If John 12:6 is true, then why would God use the death of anyone to bring us closer to him? By stating that a child’s death was ‘meant to be’ or ‘part of God’s plan’, we are saying, I don’t understand but it is easier to make God responsible for this tragedy and give it a higher purpose rather than accept the fact that we are all vulnerable to the consequences of sin.

A concept of predestined is written in the Bible.

“And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. " (Romans 8:28-30).

Vance Stinson interpreted the previous passage:

The term predestination means "to mark out beforehand," and refers to the plan and goal of salvation itself, not to specific individuals. It should be understood in the corporate sense, rather than in the sense that each individual was predestined to either eternal life or eternal condemnation.

In Romans 8:28-30 (quoted above), the Greek term translated whom is plural and therefore refers to a corporate body rather than individual persons. The passage tells us that God knew beforehand that there would be a body of believers, but does not say that He limited the membership of that body to a specific number. It further tells us that the destiny God had in mind for all who would cooperate with His will was - source

Vance offers the following illustration to understanding the Bible’s use of predestination:

Bob Smith lives in Tyler, Texas. He has been invited to attend a banquet in Shreveport, Louisiana. The host for the banquet sent Bob a ticket for a seat on a bus scheduled to leave Tyler at 9:30 a.m. on a Wednesday and arrive in Shreveport at 12:00 noon the same day - just in time for the party.

The destination of the bus has been predetermined. As soon as Bob steps onto the bus, he becomes a participant in this predetermined trip. His ticket assures him of a seat on the bus. His destination is certain.

However, if Bob throws away his ticket before departure, or if he gets off the bus between Tyler and Shreveport, he will not arrive at the destination originally intended for him.

This illustrates the destiny issue as it pertains to an individual, but what can we make of the innocent that perish because of the actions of another? If we broaden Vince Stinson’s illustration and instead of a train we view life a tree, we will see that instead of one path we have many paths in which to choose. The end of each branch has a predetermined end and depending upon one’s choices, he will either find death (for the wages of sin is death) or life (but the gift of God is eternal life).

However, this is not a lone tree in the field. It is one of many that exist in densely packed forest. The branches of the trees intercept one another. So as we make our way through the tree, it is inevitable that the actions one tree could impact the actions on another. So we have one young man climbing up his tree of life and he chooses the path that leads to death. At the same time we have a young girl who has yet to reach the age of accountability, climbing up her tree of life. The two collide and we’re left to morn the life of a child.

I believe the only things in life that are predetermined are the consequences and rewards of living outside or within the will of God. As we go through life we will make choices and interact with others who will either assist us in choosing life or hinder us and lead us to death. When the innocents die, that death is the result of sin and has nothing to do with God’s will.

It may be easier to live with an understanding that we are not fully responsible for our salvation. Humans were given dominion over the earth and charged with loving one another. Men have slaughtered many souls in that name and for the sake of God, country, salt, diamonds, slaves, greed and lust. We are incapable of living up to God’s will. So it is understandable that we would want to relinquish the burden of being responsible for our souls and placing the blame on God for the existence of evil. Ok, I’ve run out of things to say. Y’all turn.

Talk About It

1 .Do you believe in destiny?
2. Is the concept of a God predetermining our lives and free will contradictory?
3. If our lives our predetermined, is there a necessity for personal responsibility?

4. Is there a way to reconcile tragedy and destiny?


44 Responses to The Destiny of God

  1. Bullfrog Says:
    1.Do you believe in destiny?
    Absolutely. I believe God is Sovereign.

    2.Is the concept of a God predetermining our lives and free will contradictory?
    Great question and one that I have pondered often. I think it is important to distinguish between the WILL of God and the PLAN of God. He cannot willfully tempt us or cause evil, but He can allow it and use it for good.

    3.If our lives our predetermined, is there a necessity for personal responsibility?
    I think my answer to question 2 helps to explain this. God allows us to mess up, and we do it freely, so therefore we are held accountable. This also brings up the question of universal sin and the often asks, "If I can't help being what I am, why should I be punished for it?" (perhaps fodder for another blog)

    4.Is there a way to reconcile tragedy and destiny?
    As a survivor of suicide (my first wife) I can tell you personally that good things come from the worst situations.

    The best analogy I have heard to describe God's will is similar to the one you quoted, but with an important difference:

    God's will is like a ship, let's call it the Love Boat (why not?). We live on the boat, and can do whatever we want on it; play shuffleboard, run around, throw things over the side, etc., but no matter what, that boat will reach it's predetermined destination. Guess who is at the helm?
  2. nosthegametoo Says:
    My faith gives me strength, and helps me find peace when I need it most.
  3. stuffle Says:
    Whoah, man, tough subjects here today. Whenever I try to make sense of stuff like that, I just get a headache...

    Basically here is what I believe. First off, God gave us free will and will not interfere with that free will (though He is perfectly capable of doing so). Thus we are all personally reponsible for living according to His will or outside his will.

    At the same time, I belive God knows exactly how and when we will deviate from His will, and He knows what the outcome is, and has a plan for that to ultimatly turn our evil to good.
  4. bold as love Says:
    1 .Do you believe in destiny?
    2. Is the concept of a God predetermining our lives and free will contradictory?
    No- Our frre will might delay what God wants us to do or be, but His will will be done in the end.

    3. If our lives our predetermined, is there a necessity for personal responsibility?
    yes. Personal responsibility is part of our spiritual growth. It is what allows the predetermined parts of our lives to be rich and full.

    4. Is there a way to reconcile tragedy and destiny- yes, it's called "Faith" You either believe God's will is being served or you don't.
  5. James Manning Says:

    Then I believe we are saying the same thing. Our lives are not predestined but the destination is. And using your same analogy, if someone were to fall overboard, it wouldn't be because the captian ordained that at some point in time that person would fall off of the ship.

    Also, I am sorry to hear about your wife.


    So what about those who's life is cut short?

    >> History has shown that humans have the ability to endure the most horrific events.
  6. bold as love Says:
    The whole concept of a person's life being cut short is basically our perception- something we see and try to understand of this world. Maybe a person is meant specifically to exist in this world only for a short time- that short time alone could accomplish their reason for being.
    See , we could go around and around on this subject and never pin down a definite point- because we do not know God's will nor his reasons for some of the things he allows to happen. Once again we are back to square one- "Faith"
    I struggled with this concept for a long time- but then I learned to love the mystery of it all, I guess you could say I surrendered to the unknown and found some peace.
  7. Bullfrog Says:
    I believe the main issue that causes us to struggle against the will of God is pride. We think we have to figure it all out, and when God is "mysterious" and doesn't tell us the whole story, we get frustrated. The premise that we, as finite beings, can "figure God out" is a futile exercise.
  8. James Manning Says:

    I was thinking the same thing. See, I don't think it is our place to figure out God. But God did intend for us to figure him out but figure out how to live a life that his pleasing to Him. And he didn't even leave that up to our own whim. He provided instructions. And of course, we jacked that up so he did away with a bunch of rituals and sent an example and made it so there was only one way. Of course, we're jacking that up too so I wouldn't be surprise if He just decided that we're useless and turn the world over to monkeys.
  9. mark Says:
    Yo James good post.

    1 .Do you believe in destiny?

    No I choose where I work, whether I bike or drive to work, and where I eat during my lunch break. So I make my own destiny. Or if your murdured of killed in an accident then it is misfortune but not destiny.

    2. Is the concept of a God predetermining our lives and free will contradictory?

    Indeed it is, if it is already decided how your life is going to turn out then how much free will does one have. If god has chosen a certain fate for man long before man was even created how can man posibly have free will.

    3. If our lives our predetermined, is there a necessity for personal responsibility?

    I dont believe that our lives our predetermined, but if they were I would still be for personal responsibility, first,last and always.

    4. Is there a way to reconcile tragedy and destiny?

    No thier isnt this is a cop out, it is the begining of letting man out of his or her responsibility.

    @ stuffle:

    How is it posible to deviate from gods will.Especially if god created the game, all of the rules of the game and who and when they would play that game. Every emotion man has good or bad was created by god.The people who raised you and the country your from. And beside if things are a certain way in the world, then god must want them to be that way because god is perfect and incapable of making mistakes. So everthing in the world is as god wants it to be, right or wrong good or bad.

    @ Bold

    You bold if a persons life was meant to be cut short then I would assume that is a example of gods will at work. So if a person life is cut short, and its gods will then why should man be prosecute criminals such as Nazis, the Japaneese during world war 2 or the Rawandan murderers that massacred almost 1 million people in 8 months. Maybe it was meant for the 1 million children to be expirenmented on as guinea pigs, and then be gassed because they were only meant to be here for a short while. Would that be serving gods will and If it is serving gods will why arrest Nazis and the other sick pupies for murder.
  10. mark Says:
    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
  11. Bullfrog Says:
    @James: I totally agree that God HAD TO take matters into His own hands, otherwise ALL would be lost, including you and I. This destroys the notion that people who believe they are loved by God are prideful and full of themselves. I believe God loves me not because He saw something good in me, some potential, but because it simply pleases Him. He gets ALL the glory for me, and that is exactly how He wants it!

    @Mark: this goes back to the difference between God's will and His PLAN.

    God allowed Hitler and the Nazis to do what they did, but He did not CAUSE it. Big difference.

    Why did He allow it? I can't give you a difinitive answer. What I can say is that people who reject God because He allows bad things things to happen to good people have one problem: An inability to submit their own will, with it's conditioning and pre-conceived notions, to their Creator.

    The Bible puts it best:

    Rom 9:19-20;
    19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
    (from New International Version)
  12. The Phoenix aka ThatGirlTam Says:
    Hmm...questions about God and His plan always leave me a little speechless...hehehe...especially today when I only came here to answer a question you left on my blog. So lemme get THAT outta the way...BossMack is our new offical WCB Top Mack Nigga - WCB = West Coast WCBH = West Coast Blogging Hotties...see?

    Ok to answer the question of the day...this is hard for me to answer in the terms of which you asked because I am Pagan and live by a different set of beliefs.

    Everything happens for a reason - whether it's someone ELSE'S WILL is debatable. I believe everyone has a DESTINY. I believe that everyone has the power of FREE WILL. Sometimes the greater lesson stems from the actual tragedy itself. Some souls are sacraficed - bodies are merely shells.

    We could easily sit here and get caught up on God's way or what he expects of His followers...I say to each his/her own...
  13. stuffle Says:
    How is it posible to deviate from gods will.

    By not doing it. Just like Adam & Eve, and Cain, and pretty much everyone since with one notable exception...

    And beside if things are a certain way in the world, then god must want them to be that way

    Um, no, not really. Read the old testiment profits and you will see that things are often not the way God wants them to be, and it is all due to man not following God's will.
  14. Bushwack Says:
    Hello James, Mrs. Bushwack here. Good questions!
    Why God does what he does? Who can tell? I look at the story of Job, a righteous man. God allowed him to really be tormented by Satan. Fair? No- God’s will yes. Does it make sense to us? Not really, but here are some things to ponder.

    Destiny- here is what he says: “I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future.” (Jeremiah 29:11) This is what God wants for us. We need to remember that God “sees” time differently. We are concerned with this plane only; the life in the body- God is concerned with eternal issues. His plans are forever- and at times that is too much for our minds to understand. When He allows things to happen he is concerned with the forever outcome. His will does not change. The word of the Lord stands forever.

    So, how does free will play into His plan? I look at it this way. I have freedom within boundaries. What are those boundaries? They are in Micah 6:8 “What does the LORD require of you o man? To love mercy, act justly and walk humbly with your God.” Jesus set them – In Luke 10:27 “Love the LORD you God with all your heart, soul, strength and your neighbor as yourself.” I can do pretty much anything within those parameters. And if I choose, I can step outside them as well, but not with out consequences. My destiny is already determined, “ My life is not my own but I was purchased at with a price. That is the price of the blood of Christ.” My eternity is secured by my faith in Him,
    We live in a broken world. We must trust that God has all the details worked out. Personally, I like letting Him handle all the big stuff! LOL
  15. Bullfrog Says:
    @stuffle & bushwack:

    well said!
  16. Sherril Says:
    Hello James,

    I guess I'm late in the game, but welcome back to blog-land.

    I think you can use a different perspective here. I, unlike all of your other commenters am not Christian. I am Jewish. I am Jewish and I am agnostic. So, here are my responses to your questions, for what it's worth.

    1 .Do you believe in destiny?
    If destiny means that all things are pre-destined, then the answer both according to my religion's teaching and my personal belief is NO. If there is a god, then she has given us free will, so we determine our destiny. However, I do believe in SERRENDIPITY.!

    2. Is the concept of a God predetermining our lives and free will contradictory?

    That is a more difficult question. I believe there are overall plans. After all the sun rises each morning and sets each evening, so there is order within the chaos. Nature, both in its order and chaos is believable to me. Unfortunately we humans have the choice and capacity to fowl the air so that it is more difficult to see the sunrise and sunset. And then we have the choice and ability to see the errors of our way, and do what is necessary to clean up the air. So, I guess Nature and free will are not contradictory.

    3. If our lives are predetermined, is there a necessity for personal responsibility?

    Given the question as it stands, I would say NO. However, given that I don't believe it's all predetermined, the answer is a most certain and resounded YES. In the Jewish tradition, on the holiest day of the year, Yom Kippur, it is taught that god commands us to ask forgiveness from our fellow human beings first and foremost. It is only after this is done, that one can ask forgiveness from god.

    4. Is there a way to reconcile tragedy and destiny?

    First of all there are different types of tragedy. There are the tragedies that occur as a result of natural disasters, a la Katrina and 26 December 2004 Tsunami. Be they pre-determined or not, we have little or no control over them and the tragedy they cause.

    Human tragedy is another thing entirely. As in the initial example you gave, of the stray bullet killing the child, I see no reason to reconcile this with destiny. If the perpetrator did not have a gun, or if he had a gun, but did not shoot it, or if he shot it, but did not carelessly aim it, then the child would probably be alive today and her family would not be grieving.

    I apologize for the length of my reply, but I think these discussions are more fruitful if there are a variety of positions taken. I hope mine will be read with the same respect as the others.

  17. mark Says:
    First of all I want to say this I am 100% anti religion because it makes ordinarily smart, profound and even brilliant people say things that are intellectually dishonest. I have heard sevent day adventist, Jehova Witnesses, catholics, Christians, Jews, and Muslims all say that if you didnt believe thier brand of spiritual truth you were going to hell or were not right spiritually. I have also heard different people from all of this religions say this was metaphor, this is literal. My personal take on religion is that a lot of them (Christianity, Judiasm, Islam, ect)are really valid systems of interfacing with a higher power. As to the effectiveness of each system, that would probably get down to basic rules like hard work, innovation, respect, freedom of speech, teamwork, compromise ect. Whichever group fascilitates these concepts the most widely and effectively throughout thier society will have great success. As for any given belief bieng the truth I dont believe that. No christian will ever convince me that Malcolm X or Ghandi is going to hell because they werent christians. That makes absolutely no sense to me. But really smart people say things like that because of religion. Every religion also seems to forget abot those skeletons in thier closet as well.

    #Sherryl such sweet sweet truth. Reason trumps all.

    God allowed Hitler and the Nazis to do what they did, but He did not CAUSE it. Big difference. The Bible puts it best:Rom 9:19-20;
    19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
    (from New International Version)

    @ Bullfrog
    If god allows innocent peopele to be brutalized and murdured then god is the blame for the voilence towards those people because he knew, excuse me she knew that crimes were going to happen and she did not stop it when she could have. Please dont forget that god created all of the human or should I say inhuman emotions that allow innocent people to be massacared.The passage from Rom 9:19-20;19 is something that would get no traction with muslims, jews or many other religions. However I rspect your right to believe although I dont. To be honest all religion are pretty much equal as far as Im concerned. Mark
  18. Bullfrog Says:
    She? Anyway...

    So if God KNEW something bad was going to happpen (which HE obviously does, because He is omniscient) and did nothing about it, He is to blame? What about your precious free will? Wouldn't that violate that?

    The problem with the Atheist or even Agnostic point of view is that it is self-defeating. The basic philosophies of both actually cancel out the possibility of the view point being valid.
  19. mark Says:
    @ Bullfrog

    Thats just my point. If a person watches your child die, or something dear to them get stolen or destroyed you arent going to be feeling that person. You, nor me nor anyone else on this blog would be feeling that person. I dont believe in orginize religion because essentially you have no more proof than any other religion, but it dosent any particular religion from acting like they do. As for aithiest and agnostics canceling each other out hey it makes you feel more revelant saying that fine. The bottom line is christians give got credit when good things happen, but blame the devil when something bad happens even though god created the devil and new exactly what the devil was going to do. From my point of thinking since god created the devil and knew what the devil was going to do, then god is responsible for whatever wickedness the devil unleashes on the world. Period. Mark
  20. mark Says:
    The problem with the Atheist or even Agnostic point of view is that it is self-defeating.

    How is bieng a Athiest or Agnostic self-defeat. I think these statements originates from your intellectual religious intolerance and religious arrogance. To be frank Ive heard these kind of statments from Muslims. That why I stay far away from religion and focus on the spiritual. Folks like me are a whole lot stronger than folks like you speaking from a spiritual point of view. I am stronger because see validity in Christianity, Islam, Judiasm and other religious beliefs. I would never follow a spiritual belief that says good men like malcolm x, Ghandi, deepak chopra and the thousands of other truly good and profound men and women wont go to heaven because they are not christian. I find these beliefs to be beyond retarded. But because of religion ( and you can choose whatever religion you like), people can say all kinds of backwards and obviously untrue things based on thier religion. Some of you religous folk are even arrogant enough to try to force school prayers on the whole amerian population. As long as its christian school prayer, to hell with muslims, and Jews or anyone else with different religous beliefs. How backward. Mark
  21. Cynthia Says:
    I usally hate these discussions because they really do make seemingly intelligent people say the dumbest things. But, I really enjoyed what Mark & Sherrill said.

    There are those who believe if God created Evil, then this shows the imperfection of God if SHE/HE now says it is bad.

    Furthermore, how do you reconcile Genesis 1, Verse 31: And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

    If God made good and evil, according to the above passage, evil is good.
  22. James Manning Says:
    I do believe with convesations like this we dismiss other faiths. That's really not my point with this. I've long given up on the debate of why evil exist - because evil is - so now the issue is how do we deal with it.

    I have no issue with religion per se, but I have issues with how "we" interpret God's words (Muslims, Christians and Jews) to fit our own desire.

    It's only natural that people are arrogant about their religion - each one teaches that THAT belief system is the only way. I have given up on that debate as well. To each his own. Sooner or later we'll know the truth.

    But that ties into my debate on destiny. I will get into that when I get home.
  23. mark Says:
    @ Cyntyhia

    Not only do they ( religous folk) say stupid things, they also say racist, not to mention all of the hurtful things religion has done to homosexuals over the years.

    All because thier religion suspossedly claims it is a sin. Now out of all of the sins that are committed by man thats the one they focus.

    They are hypocrits, not all of them but they seem to have extremely selective morality. Or how about them threatening to kill Galieo when he was telling the truth and could prove.

    A large amount of the wars historically have been over religion. Think middle east today, and during the crusades. Thats part of the reason why millions of people lelft europe and came to american for religous freedom. W

    hen you ask them about simple things that refute thier beliefs (pick your religion), they rarely aswer your question in a logical way that follows the rules that human beings use daily all over the world. Logic Im talking about is common sense. Thier are some things in religous text that defy all of the rules of common sense.

    These are a couple of my thoughts. God is the profoundest thing of all time. His/Her understanding is more complete than anything in the universe. Meaning, god could make his ultimate words and rules for man very, very simple so everyone all over the planet could clearly understand how they are supposed to conduct themselves. As it stands now that isnt the case even amongst christians, they have dozens of sects, over 20 different bibles, the church is so divided and split that sunday is the most segregated day in america(always has been), add to that the different religions with the similar dynamics. All that confusion about what god wants man to do. I believe that god could make his spiritual matters as simple as milking a cow, or the concept of the sun being yellow. After all you can go to any place on the planet and they would all agree that the sun is yellow, god could break his word down this simple if he wanted to. My personal oppinion is that has another purpose, the world is in perpetual motion, man is in control up to a certain point, and it isnt gods place to intefere in our personal lives very much. That makes sense to me. Ill say it one more time for the people.

    I would never follow a spiritual belief that says good men like malcolm x, Ghandi, deepak chopra and the thousands of other truly good and profound men and women wont go to heaven because they are not christians. Mark
  24. mark Says:
    Question for the religous folk.

    If homosexuality is wrong, if men and women are supposed to only be in lifetime partneships with the opposite sex. Then why does god allow hermaphrodits to be born, they by nature are multi-sexed? Or is that they dont count? Mark
  25. Bullfrog Says:
    @Mark: Adam & Eve were born perfect and able to fellowship with God without hindrance. Then they sinned and since then, sin has been in every person born into this world. The birth defect you speak of, and every other for that matter, is a consequence. This also answers your question Cyn. At the point God proclaimed everything to be good, it indeed was, then came the fall.

    Atheists believe that we happened as a result of random chance. Using that same logic to describe the human brain, our brain cells are just a random occurence and just happen to be able to give us thought. So every thought, idea, philosophy that man comes up with (including Atheism) is just a product of some random cells clustered together and therefore INVALID and UNPROVABLE. The belief in a creator is actually much more logical and requires less of a leap of faith than your atheism.

    Mark, you still haven't reconciled your belief in God being responsible for all evil with free will. If He took control of everything and FORCED His creation to do things a certain way, we would not have free will, we would be drones. So which is it? Are WE responsible personally for our sin, OR do we not have free will? You probably don't like either choice but that is what you are left with...
  26. mark Says:
    @ Bull Frog

    MB: Yo Bull Frog Im much stronger on this issue than you. I see spiritual validity in the Christian, Doctrine, as well as other religous doctrines. You only see spiritual validity in your brand of religion , Christianity. That alone makes me stronger than you. God did not give you or any other group dominion over spirituality. Science has been unraveling the vast # of innaccuries in the bible ever since religion began. Funny thing is that even the smartest most reasonable of you guys have not one shred of proof over any other religion.

    BF: Mark: Adam & Eve were born perfect and able to fellowship with God without hindrance. Then they sinned and since then, sin has been in every person born into this world

    MB: Look man I know all about adam but my question is why should I be punished for something that somebody did 2000 years ago. I had absolutely nothing to do with Adam eating that apple. I wouldnt told not to do but I wasnt so I dont think I should have to suffer for something I would have stopped but couldnt. Whatever Adam did it isnt my fault and I do not accept resposibility. And besides , muslims, Jews and hindus say something different went down. If things went down the way you say then that means Judiasm, Islam, Hinduism and Buhdism are lies. I find this to be an arrogant form of thinking

    BF : If He took control of everything and FORCED His creation to do things a certain way, we would not have free will, we would be drones.

    MB: Yo say what you want, that talk only makes since to christians. Not to muslims, Jews, or me. We have a different way of interpreting god and universe. Mark
  27. mark Says:
    YO BF are you down with school prayer in public school. Mark
  28. Bullfrog Says:
    The only significant difference between all of the religions you mentioned: Their treatment of Jesus Christ.

    Muslims believe He was just a wise man and a prophet.

    Jews do not believe He was who he said He was, which is why He was crucified for blasphemy, making Himself equal with God.

    The Bible teaches that God was born of flesh as Jesus Christ to save us, who inherited the sinful nature. Because if this sinful nature, we have committed our own sin, which we are personally responsible for.

    In discussing these matters with any Muslim, Jew, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, etc. it always comes down to one question: Who is Jesus Christ?

    As far as prayer in schools, I believe every child should be allowed to pray, regardless of their religion, but that no child should be forced to pray if they do not want to. I believe this is what the founders of this country intended when they wrote the Constitution.

    James: I feel i should apologize as this talk has gone far beyond the original intent of your blog.

    Mark: if you want to talk more, come over to my blog, I will be happy to discuss this at any length.
  29. James Manning Says:
    I don't mind this discussion. I find it interesting yet, futile. Each will believe what one feels. And you are right in sense BF. Muslims, Christians and Jews view Jesus differently. But then there are religions that have no concept of Jesus.

    What I find ironic is that most religions have simular principles with regards to how we live and treat one another - but they are vastly different in terms of how we get to heaven. So, instead of using the principles attempt to unite us in a respectable manner while we live, we destroy one another because of the differences in how we achieve eternal life with God. Doesn't that seem rather strange?
  30. mark Says:
    James my only reason for dialoging is to get at the truth. Ive had these discussions for a long time and with several different sects of christians as well as muslims. I have said repeatedly that christianity is valid, as well as islam and judism. As far as me wanting to believe any particular view, thats not the case with me my passion is for truth. It is more than obvious to me that if 2 different religions tell you that thier religion is the only way to get to god. But the only thing to prove them correct is thier religous text, then someone is wrong and their is no way of proving who is wrong. If you are an honest person or group I think you should proclaim this in regards to religion, "I cant prove this philosophy, but this is what I believe (insert, religion) went down. It dosent mean Im taking away from any other religions validity, but this is what I believe". It is my belief that if you say something ( even if its religous in context), you should have to be able to prove it, if you cant prove it you should at least be able to put together a decent argument for your belief bieng true. Just like mans has to with anything else in life. I personally believe that if one follows the ten commandments and a few other progressive principles one will deffinately get to heaven. That is if thier is a heaven, and that goes for all people including atheist. This is a main reason I cant feel certain religions, because no matter how righteous one may be if your not a christian (muslim, Jewish) you are going to hell. My spirituality rejects this view, in fact I think this view is very stupid, but adults go around saying this type of stuff due to religion. You will find lots of well many chistians, muslims and Jews who will tell you that the Dali Lami is going to hell because of his religous beliefs. From what I know about the Dali Lami I find the thought of him going to hell to be retarded. Mark
  31. Outside the Box Says:
    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
  32. Outside the Box Says:
    What I find ironic is that most religions have simular principles with regards to how we live and treat one another - but they are vastly different in terms of how we get to heaven.

    That is because people don't seem to understand the difference between beliefs and values. I'll do it as my next Semantics Lesson. Swing by and let me know what you think.
  33. Cynthia Says:
    @Bullfrog: Your God allegedly created the Devil before this alleged Adam ate the apple. Therefore, the perfect God created imperfection which means God erred, which also means the imperfection that is seen is a result of an imperfect God/religion. This Christian God doesn’t give choices it gives ultimatum with death, as the ultimate punishment of exercising free will.

    @James: The bible have so many contradictions that unless you are willing to see how it all started, any conversation you have will be fruitless since so much silly stuff will be said that can’t be backed up with any type of proof or logic.
  34. Bullfrog Says:
    Actually, God created Lucifer as an angel of light, the archangel of music. Lucifer then became filled with pride and jealousy at God's power, so he decided to abandon his place on high and took 1/3 of the angels with him. I think you know this, and this again proves that God allowed evil, but did not create it.

    Cyn, you constantly rail on the many contradictions in the Holy Bible. Name ONE.
  35. The Phoenix aka ThatGirlTam Says:
    And this is the reason why I'm Pagan...

    The "TRUTH" that people seek...isn't that all based on the interpretation?? I James said, there are plenty of religions that don't even BELIEVE in Heaven (or Hell) - and plenty of religions that don't believe in is it safe to say these questions were really geared towards "believers" and "seekers" of this "truth"??

    One should be very careful (and perhaps a little politically correct) in making assumptions that everyone follows the same doctrine. Besides, who's to say the correct and INCORRECT way to worship and WHO we should believe in and follow??

    When did this dicussion turn into "I'm a bigger believer than you"?? So does that mean the non-believers are going to hell???

    I totally hate these kinds of discussions because in the end, (like I've heard a few times here), shit like this makes intelligent people sound STUPID (ok, so maybe that isn't the way it was said, but you get my drift). Christianity, Muslim, Jews, etc AREN'T the only games in town...does it even matter to anyone else here what the REST of us think??
  36. mark Says:
    Yo I mean no one any harm or to cause trouble amongst friends on this blog. I just want a real and truthful debate.I believe that NO ONE can say that thier religion(or truth)is any higher, nobler or relevant than anyone elses. I give love to all religions that do the right thing. What bothers me is , religous folk get to say whatever they choose to say without prooving it, or even offering a compelling argument as to its validity. Amongst all religions, some say this passage is metaphor, some say it really happen. Such things as the Flood, or the resurrection. You have over twenty something bibles. The church/temple/Mosque has a history of slavery, corruption and trying to cover up scientific truths. For example the Catholic church selling forgiveness and threatning to kill Galieo when he was telling the truth. Science has been proving religion inaccurate time and time again. After all of of the knowledge we have such as Dna, Nuclear technology, and space travel you guys (christians,muslims,Jew,ect) are still going around claiming that your particular brand of truth is more relevant than all others. Including science. I aint feeling that. Mark

    P.S I dont care what anybody on this blogs says. Malcolm X, Probably all the Dali Lamas, and Ghandi are going to heaven if thier is a heaven. Period. If you cant feel that Im not feeling your religion. Peace
  37. mark Says:
    @ Bull Frog

    BF: Actually, God created Lucifer as an angel of light, the archangel of music. Lucifer then became filled with pride and jealousy at God's

    MB: Yo I though god knew everything that Lucifer was going to do. If that is the truth didnt god know that Lucifer was going to betray him? If god created Lucifer knowing that he would get stabbed in the back, why would he create him? If god knew that Lucifer would wreak havoc on us poor little human folk then why would he even bother to create Lucifer? The god I believe would never create a cat named Lucifer who would go around smacking down man/woman any chance he got. That dont make no sense to me. mark
  38. Bullfrog Says:
    Mark: So if God didn't create Lucifer, how did he get here?

    The most compelling point that can be made about life, history, and religion itself is that Jesus Christ lived on the earth 33 years, making a huge impact on the world that is still rippling through many cultures. He claimed to BE GOD and was crucified for it!

    Was He God, a liar, or just crazy?

    If He was who He says, every other discussion is irrelevant.

    Phoeni: Ultimately, I believe real truth is completely objective, and not just based on each individual's interpretation. Here is a blog I wrote about relative truth that you might find interesting...
  39. mark Says:
    Yo BF you can believe what you want. However chances are that you cant prove, or even offer a decent argument for it bieng true. If believe in Jesus, or Muhamad, or the tora takes you to a higher spiritual level good. I think the world would be a worse place without orginized religion. I still reserve the right to point out Non Truths and other things that dont add up any time I choose concering any religions nonsense. You can quote as many bible verses as you want, I still say that could non christian men and women are going to heaven period. That makes a little bit more sense than what you believe. I and others have thoroughly provent that life as told in the bible didnt go down that way, that goes for the Koran and Torah as well. Anyway I like you man lets just agree to disagree until you come up with a little proof. Mark
  40. Bullfrog Says:
    "Chances are..."? Are you just HOPING I don't have a compelling argument for historical account of the life of Christ?

    Notice also that you are the one who keeps bringing up religion, the church, etc., all I am saying is forget religion and answer ONE important question: Who is Christ?

    Mark, ANY credible historian or scholar will atest to the Biblical account of history concerning the life of Christ. Try here for more details on the historicity of the New Testament.

    I think you are an intelligent individual with good intentions, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time discussing this with you.
  41. mark Says:
    BF:Chances are..."? Are you just HOPING I don't have a compelling argument for historical account of the life of Christ?

    MB: Yo Bull Frog I would never hope someone dosent have have any proof for thier beleifs. In fact me being a person of reason and no solidified belief anyone that has any legitame argument about anything I am willing to listen to. Please do not try to paint me as closed minded, between you and me having an open mind I think out debate clearly shows who has an open mind and who is just repeating rhetoric hundreds of years old. Once again BF Im much stronger than you on this issue, if you insist on debating I will be force to remove the intellectual white gloves.Peace. Mark
  42. Bullfrog Says:
    Mark: I INSIST on debating this issue; take 'em off baby!!

    Your blog or mine?
  43. Anonymous Says:
    Very nice site! Oriental blowjobs Provigil to uk neurontin faq paintings of chrysler building new york Texas conference calling company description neurontin neurontin and rectal administration change car tape player to cd player
  44. Anonymous Says:
    That's a great story. Waiting for more. Delong letter jackets plastic flower pot Montenegro projectors suzuki bandit 1200 customized atv suzuki In car dvd manufacturers Is leadership training effective Subaru baja 2003 for sale washington