Some Problems I Have With Christians
I was raised in a very religious home. My great-grandfather founded the church I attended. My grandmother read the Bible to me almost every night, then Reverend Porter did the rest on Sunday mornings. Over the years I’ve studied the Bible and have probably read the entire book at least three times in my adult life.
There are things that stick in my mind and there are scriptures that I can reference and many more I know where to go to find them even if I can’t recall them verbatim. I have a good understanding of biblical principles. Basically, I have a decent working knowledge of the Bible.
As for my faith, I firmly believe in God. He has answered numerous prayers and I have no doubt that He is with me. As a human, I wonder about the validity of other religions. But as a Christian, I know that only through Jesus Christ am I saved.
I say all of that to present one of my greatest conflicts. I believe in the Bible – but I don’t trust my fellow Christians. That’s not a blanket indictment of every Christian I know. I think Scott has a great church and every time I heard him speak I would say to myself… I got that. I’ve met a lot of good people and there were a few that I knew were Christian simply by the way they carried themselves and how they communicated with others. There have even been a select few that I’ve been around and felt the presence of God. Their anointing was that powerful. So please understand that I’m talking in generalities. But I digress…
The fact is, the biggest problem with being a Christian is dealing with other Christians. I don’t like being around them most of the time. Many are judgmental, mean, arrogant, aloof, self-righteous and in general, not all that fun to be around. Many quote scriptures to fit their own needs. I actually had to leave a church. Not because of what the preacher was teaching but because of the people he was teaching. It was the rudest, cruelest bunch of people I’ve ever met.
Human nature being what it is, there will always be people that won’t represent their faith as they should. But as I’ve gotten older, it has gotten harder to listen to Christians discuss their faith then look at their actions and see neither resembling anything close to my understanding of what a Christian should be.
It is not fair to reference the high profile folks but the truth is they have many followers. I here Pat Robertson and Jerry Farwell and I say to myself, I would never want to associate myself with those men and I don’t even want my faith associated the them. Creflo Dollar and Benny Hinn have thousands of followers and for the life of me I don’t understand how.
I see them reference Mark 11:15 (Jesus overturns the tables of the moneychangers in the Temple) to justify their anger. But I have yet to see any reference John 8:3-11 when Jesus spared the life of a woman that committed adulteress. Understandable that the Old Testament advocated the death penalty and Jesus did say that He did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it.
There are so many more and I really haven’t gotten into how difficult it is to personally interact with many Christians. It is sad but I believe that biggest impediment for non-believers are the believers that are suppose to be a light. I will go into details but before I do, I would like to get input from others.
What Say You:
1. What’s wrong with Christians?
2. Have Christians lost their moral authority?
3. What part did Christians play in fewer Americans attending church?
4. Is it even a Christian’s responsibility to worry about what others think of him/her?
5. What areas could Christians do a better job in interacting with others?
6. At what point does judging become condemnation?
7. Is either even a problem?
12:31 AM Jesus himself called it in his apostrophe to the scribes and Pharisees. The Pharisees were the most orthodox, the most learned, the most ostentatiously pious, the most zealous of all Jews, yet they earned the most scathing and caustic denunciations Jesus ever uttered. No pagan, no publican, no harlot or sinner or outcast, was ever shown the wrath that was directed towards the self-appointed custodians of Moses' teachings. Indeed, Jesus showed pagans, publicans and sinners the utmost kindness--healing, forgiving, sharing fellowship and teaching them with tenderness and patience.
So why is that the most fervently religious among the Jews earned the worst condemnation, while those who had little or no religious instruction at all, received blessings and tenderness? Jesus said it was because the Pharisees and Saducees were hypocrites who were steeped in the letter of the law, but understood nothing of it's spirit, and sought only to exploit the word for their own personal gain, while those on the margins of society who followed him did so not because of hope of heaven or fear of hell, but out of simple love for him. Think of those who Jesus praised the most in the bible, like Peter and the Roman Centurion. Their love of Jesus and their faith in him was simple, spontaneous and direct. It wasn't the product of learning or tradition. That's the thing that the Pharisees didn't, or wouldn't, understand. Orthodoxy doesn't make you righteous; love does.
All the Pharisees authority, learning and piety only resulted in them being arrogant, self-opionionated and narrow minded. Even the disciples, who heard the Word directly from Christ himself, constantly struggled to understand his real purpose and intent because they were so conditioned by ecclesiastical authority. How often did Christ lament their weakness and slowness. Every believer in Christ would do well to reflect on that fact. Perhaps it will inspire us to approach both teaching and learning the word with a great deal more humility.
6:56 AM TO Jay,
Many christians have lost their moral authority just like the conservative Republican party has lost its moral authority. Mnay christians Jay they don't have faith above reason - what is faith above (beyond) reason? It is when you don't need to see with your eyes in order to believe that the master creator exist many christians say they believe but they have doubt and uncertainty in their minds. WE must never loose Faith above reason (faith beyond reason) the mind will reason you to death saying their is no GOD or what if there really is not GOD. The mind can be an enemy so we must keep faith above reason (above the mind).
So christians only say they believe in GOD because heaven offered. You know just in case there is a heaven this motivates them to believe. WE shall see what the future holds for all of humanity, I feel that destruction will hit by way of war and suffering before things get better.
By Chance
7:08 AM 1. What’s wrong with Christians?
As my daughter recently pointed out, this woman typifies the face of Christian zealots today.
While the Phelps' are certainly extreme whack jobs, the rest of Christianity gets colored by their actions. I think that is partially due to the fact that other high profile Christians (like Robertson, et al) are not as extreme, the do say some fairly similar things.
3. What part did Christians play in fewer Americans attending church?
Some, though I think the church's failure to adapt to the modern world has also had a lot to do with that. Churches that have kept their worship and ministries relevant to the world around them have been expanding.
Christ told his followers to be in the world but not of the world. However, many churches had just simply failed to remain in the world as the world changed around them.
4. Is it even a Christian’s responsibility to worry about what others think of him/her?
Yes and no. It really depends on whether or not their actions are consistent with God's will.
IOW, a Christian should be concerned when their own actions are not consistent with the will of God, and are thus causing others to stumble. OTOH, a Christian who is compasionatly preaching the truth should not really be concerned with the fact that some people are not going to like that.
5. What areas could Christians do a better job in interacting with others?
Compassion. A lot of Christians are really good at condemning homosexuality, abortion, whatever, but are very hateful while doing it.
Using abortion as an example, too many pro-lifers will picket clinics and scream "baby killer", and hand out disgusting pamphlets. It would be far better to lovingly provide alternatives for these poor women who are considering abortion, and to try and convince them in a calm, compassionate manner that abortion is the wrong choice.
Unfortunatly, though, I see more people picketting w/ disgusting pictures of ripped up fetuses than I see anyone with signs pointing to better alternatives.
And the sad thing is many of these people call themselves Christian. That is not exactly what you would call putting your best foot forward...
7:10 AM OK, I somehow screwed up the link in my last comment. Try this one instead.
8:45 AM Thanks gentlemen.
Chance, you got a new picture. Looking good, kid.
Anyway, there is a lot of truth to what each of you wrote. I'm going to get into some other aspects of this debate.
9:03 AM Hey James
Thanks for the post. Thanks for the gentle and honest tone too - prophetic without church-bashing.
I reckon you're right to reject everything that is not of Jesus. Also speaking as a Christian, we have to own and simply to confess the screw ups of our community, whether relational crimes and emotional bullying, or political crimes in the name of Jesus. Not because we are active moral agents in such actions necessarily, but because we know we've been called into some sort of community around Jesus and that it is therefore part of our identity.
Still, keep on chasing the person of Jesus, however much others of his followers try to keep you from him. We've been doing that to the vulnerable and honest ever since little children turned up to be blessed by Jesus and the disciples tried to send them away. We've got to become more like the children and less like the inner circle.
9:08 AM You make some valid points here. To be honest the more I grow in my faith and experience the less judgmental I get.
I've never been a fan of either Robertson or Falwell to be honest. I've always been much more of a James Dobson (Focus on the Family) person. And I've heard horrific things about Hinn milking people for money.
I think like with all things it depends on where you go. There will be some churches filled with phonies just like anywhere else. I just hope you don't judge Christ by the imperfections of Christians.
As for Stuffle's reference to the Phelps thats completely not fair. They are a wacked out cult that has no clue what it means to be a Christian. When I looked at Fred Phelps on Wikipedia I was horrified. He is an extremely abusive, manipulative man that has somehow brainwashed people to follow him. He knows nothing about genuine Christianity.
10:02 AM The problem with Christians is they have forgotten that they are also living according to God's mercy, and undeservedly so. They have forgotten their first love, grace. I also believe the rise of the "Mega Church" with 3,000 people in the congregation may have discouraged some who don't want to get lost in the shuffle but have close intimate fellowship with other believers. The problem with the Pharisees of Jesus' time, and the same problems Christians face, is that we grow in knowledge of God's word, but forget that the Word is supposed to point us to Him.
John 5:39-40
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
(from New International Version)
We enter into a relationship with God through the mercy seat, then we leave grace behind and begin to live for Him under our own steam. I believe this is what breeds the hippocrite, one who believes they have salvation by their own means has some right to boast and compare their self-rightousness to others.
If you accept Jesus' sacrifice on your behalf and abide (live) in His love, you will begin to lose the tendency to be self-conscious and others opinions about you mean less than just living above reproach so that God may be glorified.
I don't believe it is EVER appropriate to judge others, and by that I mean making a determination about what someone's fate should be, because only God knows the hearts of men. We are only called to submit to the greatest command, which is love God with all your heart mind, soul strength, and love you neighbor as yourself. This should keep us busy enough not to be worried about the shortcomings of our fellow man.
10:45 AM 1. What’s wrong with Christians?
You said it best James, they are mean, arrogant, self-righteous, and not fun to be around....They try to impose their religion on everyone else and if you don't agree with them, you are SATAN...
2. Have Christians lost their moral authority?
Yes, because all of the sanctified Christians I know, are the biggest hypocrites and heathens...
They are your closet freaks...
They cuss as soon as they leave church and they talk about the other women in the church....That's not god-like. Not to mention, lusting over the pastor. Did I mention that there is so much sex going on in the church, between the church goers, married or not.
Its still adultery and fornication. Every Christian I know fornicates, but will tell you they are celibate....
Just keep it real, we are all humans and we have flaws, and carnal desires....
5. What areas could Christians do a better job in interacting with others?
For one, stop imposing your religion on people and shunning them because they don't agree, its their job to help the non believer believe, not by attacking them and their belifs...
6. At what point does judging become condemnation?
At the very moment you judge a person, only GOD can judge anyone...and a person can judge themselves, but who are you just because you're a Christian to judge anyone??
11:22 AM As for Stuffle's reference to the Phelps thats completely not fair. They are a wacked out cult that has no clue what it means to be a Christian.
Yet that is often how we are seen by others. Phelps is an extreme example, to be sure, but you don't have to go any farther than some of the responses here to see that...
A lot of that is due to a skewed mis-perception of Christians due to high profile Christians being more Phelps-like than Christ-like, but as I tried to point out with my "abortion protestor" example, we collectivly have a tendency to do the same, just not as extreme.
11:47 AM That is true Stuffle. But what about the interactions on a personal level. I know a lot of people that believe in God and read the bible but won't step foot in a church. There are many others that have told me that they have a problem with "organizd religion".
What is happening that so many want to distance themselves from people who beleive as they do?
12:41 PM Very challenging post James. I posted a few comments and an excerpt on my blog along with a link. I guess I'd like to add, guilty as charged. Sometimes us Christian folk are horrible. I know people are trying to put the Phelps video in a special catagory, but Jesus was pretty clear. If you call your brother a name, you too are guilty of murder. It is when we can realize that we too are just like Phelps in our attitudes towards at least someone, (black people, white people, Clinton, Bush, etc.) that we can move past hateful speech, actions, and lives to a place where God will be pleased.
For me it comes down to this. Are we as Christians being honest with ourselves and pursuing transformation in our lives? And if so, that should show in our relationships with not only other Christians we know, but people we don't know and those of other or perhaps no faith.
12:52 PM TO Jay,
The Esoteric
I feel that many Christians who read the bible and believe in GOD but won’t go to church. No longer feel that inner fire that that the church once had. The church once had a powerful inner emotional fire that made you want to attend and not miss out. But those days are long gone now.
Jay when ever follows of any religion in past history stopped attending the religious temples of their religion. It means that a new religious type teaching is coming or a new religion is on rise. I study the esoteric side of religion and Jay it is the esoteric side of religion that is on the rise. The esoteric means secret or hidden every religion has a hidden or secret side. The Christian religion in its present form is no longer suitable for the masses, and this is why Christianity is dying out in its present form.
Gnosis is the esoteric (hidden and secret) side of Christianity and this gnosis will be the religion of the future. A person who studies gnosis is called a Gnostic. The word gnosis means knowledge especially knowledge of the heart. SO Jay it is a good thing that people are not enthusiastic about going to church because they are seeking some new esoteric higher teachings the same Gnostic teaching that Jesus taught his disciples.
I might this week or next week write an essay showing the hidden secret interpretation of the bible. It is fascinating and this type of teaching Jay will be the teachings of the future. Don’t feel guilty because you all don’t go to church I don’t attend regular church either. I am a DEIST AND ESOTERICIST, I want to drop some hidden interpretation here right now but I will wait till I write the essay instead.
BY Chance
1:26 PM Chance: while I admit Gnosticism has it's appeal, the fact that it puts personal intuition above the authority of the Bible makes it nothing short of heresy. This philosophy of the Gnostic has been around for a very long time and is definitely not new or progressive thinking.
1:46 PM Chance,
I'm not familiar with Gnosticism but I will look into it.
1:55 PM To Bull-frog,
Chance: Gnosticism uses the bible and interprets the bible also they just don't operate on intuition only. Gnosis operates on the bible and the GOD that lives in the heart. The GOD that lives in the heart some people call it intuition but true intuition (truition) comes from GOD and god speaks through the heart even Christianity speaks of the heart. TRUE gnostic read the bible and learn from it they know the hidden interpretation that JESUS knew about the bible. Also the Catholic Church use to be called the universal gnostic church before they changed it to the Catholic Church. Jesus was a gnostic and kabbalist I could go through the teaching of the gospel and reveal the esoteric interpretation that the average Christian know little or nothing about. There are different types of gnostic too some have incorrect teachings. There is only one true gnosis and gnostic but many false branches have been created like many branches of the church.
Gnosticism is the future watch!
BY Chance
1:57 PM To Jay,
Jay said: I'm not familiar with Gnosticism but I will look into it.
Chance: Please do Jay you will find it uplifting and I plan to write an esoteric essay soon interpreting the scriptures from an esoteric point of view.
By Chance
2:00 PM To Jay and Bull-frog,
Isalm esotric side sufism
Judaism esotric side Kabbalah
Christianity esotric side gnosis
Hinduism and Buddism both have esotric sides. Every religion has two sides.
By Chance
4:21 PM Funny, I just found this link describing what is wrong with Christians in America.
4:56 PM Good article BF. He touched on a few things I was thinking about. I'll have to reference it in my next post.
8:44 PM James,
I'm gonna leave this subject alone- I might say some things my fellow christians might not like, that plus this subject is touchy living so near to Creflo dollor's kingdom, they might burn me out if they figure out who iam- But I do appreciate you bringing the subject up, and the responses from all the bloggers were on the money.
Later'
4:17 AM >>Many are judgmental, mean, arrogant, aloof, self-righteous and in general, not all that fun to be around. Many quote scriptures to fit their own needs.<<
James, this is my problem as well. I don't even call myself a Christian any longer. I simply call myself a follower of Christ. My views are too liberal, I believe that there are more than one way to enlightenment. I have been blessed that I have had a personal relationship with the Creator. I rarely call the Creator God, or refer to the Creator as "him" If I do it's just because it's quicker, and not that I consider the Creator to be a "male". I have no problem with many of the things typical Christians do, i.e. same sex relationships, sex outside of marriage, and things like that. I can't tell others how to live their life, because I'm trying my best to figure it all out myself. I believe if we love each other, no bullshit, that's the best we can do. If we really love one another, so many other problems are eradicated. It's incredible.
But in the name of "love" many Christians have done more harm than good and turned people away from finding a personal relationship with God. This is the most terrible crime anyone can commit. And like my Big Momma used to say...I fear some "Christians" are going to "Bust hell wide open!" lol.
I'm liberal, and a follower of Christ. Somehow the two don't always fit in the mind of some...but I'm cool with that. The Creator and I are cool.
Kim
11:10 AM Non-Christians are sadly naive if they use the Christians' shortcomings as the reason for accepting a painful, fiery, lonely, terrifying eternity. You gonna let somebody else's behavior and attitudes keep you and your family out of heaven? That's just stupid. And the saddest part is, after it (the rapture) happens it's too late! Christians can't do anything for them then. In fact, you won’t even be able to come crying to us.
If non-believers think that Christians are anything other than sinful creatures first, then they're missing the whole point. There's really only one basic difference between the saved and unsaved, and that's that we (Christians) are forgiven. Yes, of course God bestows grace and mercy on the righteous and unrighteous (as He bestows heartache and tragedy upon both), but this covering won't get one into heaven, and that's all that really matters in the end. We're all gonna live forever; it's just a matter of where.
There are plenty of “nasty” Christians. Plenty who go from church right to the porn shop or the liquor store, or to lay up with somebody’s who not their wife (like my pastor who just quit in Feb. because he was caught with some chicken head). And? So? Christianity is still just a microcosm of the rest of society. What’s your point? You’re gonna let their behavior dictate your life, or, more importantly, afterlife? Please.
Unfortunately, I'm at the point and age where I almost don't care if people who reject Christ are doomed (except for children). I try to let the way I live act as a draw to the cross, and sometimes I do just have to be bold and speak the truth. If it's rejected, then that's on them, but I'm not sweatn' it anymore.
Harsh, true, but God has already let us know that after a person has rejected Him so many times He's gonna allow their hearts to be hardened to Him and His message. So, it's useless after a certain point. It’s all predicated on love, but, I guess even God has His limits (self-imposed, of course).
Church-going does not get one into heaven. You can be sitting at home on your bedside and get instantly saved. Scripture teaches us that we come together to worship in order to encourage each other and to keep one another in check. So church attendance is a good thing, and it's so much more difficult to learn about the magnificence of the Master trying to do it on your own--not attending church.
On the flip side of being judgmental, it's interesting that sometimes churches go too far in the other direction. For instance, now in my church nobody says anything publicly to condemn sex out of marriage. Now, whenever a (unmarried) 16-year-old girl gets pregnant, she's still allowed to serve in all her ministries, still allowed to conduct herself as if nothing is wrong. So that sends the signal to the other teen girls--and boys--that it's no longer a big deal! Back in the day, it was not like that at all. "Children" felt some shame--as they should have--walking around pregnant and un-married. What was done in the dark was put out there in the light for all to see, and it brought shame.
What non-believers call judging is often simply reproof, but, of course, they want to take it to the extreme in order to make their point about how phony we Christians are. What? Are we not supposed to say something? Read your Word. That's not what it instructs.
I guess the main point of my venting and rambling is to say that it's really an individual thing. There is a real Hell. There is a real Heaven. Folks can make excuses all they want and try to rationalize God's truths with earthly logic, but the realities of Heaven and Hell and how you get to each remain. The choice of which one we end up in is nobody's but our own. Criticize other Christians all you want. You still need to decide whether to let their behavior dictate your destiny. It ain't about them, y'all. It's just you and Jesus. That's it.
James, I don’t even know whether I touched the points you laid out for us, but this is what came out in my haste at lunch. I want everybody to got to heaven, especially all black people. But I ain’t stupid.
And on a final note, I find it interesting how Kimberly is on such a higher plane than the rest of us as to presume that "the Creator and I are cool." Wow. What a leap, Kim. Are you and He, yes, HE, so cool that He's told you that it's ok to disregard the parts of His word that don't necessarily fit with the way you want to think or behave (e.g., same-sex relationships and sex outside marriage, and the fact that He’s a “He”)? While you've got God's ear, Kim, could you ask Him His purpose for letting mosquitoes on the ark, please. I was gonna wait until I see Him to ask, but if you could relay the reason back to me now it would make them so much more bearable to me while I’m down here.
11:36 AM Many Christians are so arrogant that they think they know what is best for others. As for me, the evil that was perpetrated on others by Christians and in the name of that God - there is no way I want to stand in its present or live in any type of eternity with someone/something and others that will allow or commit various types of atrocities. Other than that, Christians are fine with me because I expect all of them to be hypocritical.
I really don't care what people believe in as long as it doesn't affect me. But, Christians in their arrogance and ignorance will try and force their religion down your throat. Instead of realizing that if a person is suppose to believe in this thing that they believe in then it will occur naturally. This is the only thing I don’t tolerate or absolutely hate about Christians. As for me, I know the average person is not what they appear so I don’t look for any type of Christ like behavior from them, this will not happen. History has shown that. So, if Christianity works, it certainly doesn’t work through individuals. There are very few people that are really willing to look deep inside and confront the demons in their religions. If this happens, then the world will change because people would change. But as long as we look for something outside of us to take our sins away when we commit them, then religion in all of its glory will never work.
9:08 PM This is a terrific post, I don't generaly debate the Christian religion I leave that up to my wife, She is a preacher and I'll have her weigh in on this if you are still interested.
11:24 PM James this is my wifes response to your post. (I married way out of my league)
Well James, welcome to a fallen world! I can totally relate to all you are saying and can understand your frustration. Can you imagine God’s disappointment? How easy it would be for the Lord just save me and take me away! But he does not. For some odd reason He chose to entrust the good news to fallible, immoral, prideful, arrogant, mean, mortal, corrupt human flesh! Why? Considering your Biblical background I’m sure you will remember the scripture, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways.” (Isaiah 55:8). God does some pretty far out stuff and most of it exactly opposite of how I would do it! But He alone is God. So to answer your questions:
What’s wrong with Christians? First what is a Christian? In the traditional sense, it is a follower / disciple of Christ. To quote Christ himself, “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.” (John 14:12) “If you hold to my teachings, you really are my disciples.” John 8: 31. I don’t think some people get it! I really don’t think they understand just what Christ did for them. I think there too many shallow, immature “Christians” who just don’t get it. Bottom line, “you will know them by their fruit.” I can tell you I am a giraffe, but until I grow a long neck, black tongue and spots, I am not one. Look for changed lives. One cannot be in the presence of God and remain unchanged.
Have Christians lost their moral authority? They never had any! We are saved by grace not works so that no can boast! Morality is a standard set by God not man. And it is obvious that we all fall short of God standards! That is why we needed a savior. We are incapable of perfection.
What part did Christians play in fewer Americans attending church? It’s hard to tell of a loving savior when your life screams so loudly of hate. Hypocritical Christians have played a part, but there are many more factors at work. The change in our basic culture has had more of an impact than anything. We live in a time when it is freedom from Christianity not of religion. However, God is God and there is nothing too hard for him!
4. Should Christians worry about what others think? We are ambassadors of Christ. Our main concern is pleasing God, following the teachings of Christ (to love God and our neighbor as ourselves.) What people think - no? What God thinks –yes! If we follow the teaching then our love “will” be evident and be will have the respect of others as well as the blessings of God.
5. Where can we do a better job? Everywhere! At home, work, wherever we go. Faith in Christ is a 24 / 7 commitment. Love as Jesus did.
6. Judging is a human curse! Only God can search the heart, only he knows the motives of each person. Judging is his job. For us, it is just a waste of energy and most of the time we are wrong!
7. Is judging a problem? We will all have to give an account of our lives. As Jesus says,
“The measure you use to judge will be used to judge you!” Better cut people some slack!
6:41 AM Bush,
Thank your wife for me. She's pretty good.
11:03 PM I did and she asked me to thank you for the opportunity to respond.
It's tough to be playa when the wife is a pastor....
10:43 AM Hey James, this is a great post. I found you through Dave Miller's blog, who I found through Charley Miller's blog. Anyway, I am a Pastor's wife and have found a lot of other Pastor's wives in the blogosphere who have a lot of problems and pressure, mostly from the Christian flock they work with. Christians can be pretty darn mean. I think this varies from church to church, and if you are lucky you can get in with a group that realizes we are all sinners, and need to work on our own dang selves before we head out to finger point. God help us all!
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