Quick Take: The Palestinian Election
I know many of you are not interested in this but humor me while I partake in the catch-22’s of world politics.
It is the American government’s policy that it does not work with terrorist organization. It is also the stated goal of our government to support merging democratic countries around the world. Hamas, a terrorist organization by anyone standards, won free elections and now control the Palestinian government. So here is the dilemma for the Bush Administration. Does it deal with Hamas and go against the principle of dealing with terrorist? Or does in shun Hamas, going against the principle of supporting democracies? Would not the message then be that the US would support your democracy but only if we like the results?
But the US isn’t the only one in a precarious situation. They must now govern. They must also bear the wrath of Israel for any terrorist attack that takes place. Abbas had an out. He just blamed Hamas and deflected retaliation from the government to an organization operating outside of the Palestinian authority. Well, now Hamas is the authority and any attacks will be directly linked to the Palestinian government and the Palestinian people in general. They must also live up the expectations of the people. It is easy to call for the total destruction of Israel, but funding schools and hospitals, picking up garbage, building roads and providing security is the function of the government and it is what people expect. There is no way to accomplish any of that when you’re sending suicide bombers into strip malls.
Finally, I think Bush and the leaders of Hamas should blame Ariel Sharon for this mess. Had Ariel Sharon allowed Abbas, who was clearly and weak duckling, to ride bask in the glory of Sharon’s withdrawal, I think Abbas would have been in a position to claim that his leadership is accomplishing something. But no, Sharon allowed Abbas to wallow in his weakness and now we have a terrorist organization running a country.
You have to admit, this really does make for good television.
1:12 PM It makes great TV, but sadly, it's a reality show.
As to the American policy of not negotiating or working with terrorist organizations, we threw that away the moment we recognized Yasir Arrafat as the legitimate leader of Palestine.
Bush will bluster and make threats and stir a tempest up in a teapot, but in the end, the U.S. Government will deal with Hammas as the legitimately elected government of Palestine. While I'm rarely one to come to George W.'s rescue, in this case I can say he has little choice. There were free elections. Hamas won.
I can't join you in blaming Sharon. Abbas was a weak leader. The Hamas landslide only leads me to the conclusion that the Palestinian people really have no interest in peaceful solutions to their political problems.
1:54 PM That may be true Diane. But I think there was a smoke & mirror technique available to make Abbas look stronger and maybe given him some political copital.
But you are right, Bush will speak tough but he will have no choice but to deal with Hamas.
But I think Hamas is more complicated than we see. Yeah, they are terrorist, but I think most Palestinian see them like a lot of people saw the Black Panther Party (except for the terrorist acts). If we can prop up governments in South America and Africa - we would have been smart to prop up Abbas and move the peace process forward. Abbas was our best shot in years. He is weakened even further by this.
2:06 PM I was reading a Time Article that says they really have nothing against us and that right now they would attack Israel because they need to get things in order.
Now 2 years from now...
2:14 PM I really think Abbas was a puppet of the U.S. It is Sharon who was encroaching on Palestine. What can you expect when people are having land taken away from them. With their hands tied, I think it is a natural outcome for anyone to go to extreme measures. The story is being told from the Israeli perspective, which in my opinion is not telling us who the real terrorists are. History has shown that those in charge always decide who are the bad guys. Israel should pull out and this would all end.
How can the U.S. say that they are for Democracy if they won’t work with a Democratically elected government? The election of the Hamas tells you who the people think are the bad guys.
2:23 PM I agree Cynt. I wouldn't be cool with folks occupying my land either. I just find the irony of all this so very interesting.
2:24 PM Just to spice up the discussion a bit, may I point out that each and every American is living on stolen land? What's the solution?
2:29 PM Great point James. I too was wondering how many folks would recognize this irony. The same may also be true soon in Iraq. What happens if that gov't decides to push us out and impose Islamic Law? Is that not a right of a soveriegn freely elected gov't?
Lest people forget, the US has a long history of not supporting freely elected gov'ts when the do not support the aims and goals of USAmerica. Think Iran and Iraq to name just a couple.
4:24 PM @ Cynthia
This is also the hypocrisy that I don't like about Christians.
Okay. I need you to draw a line for me connecting this issue to Christian hypocrisy, because I'm not seeing it. Can you help me out here?
4:40 PM Hey, I have to admit that if I were in Palestine, I'd be down with Hamas too. But the reality of the situation is this: Israel isn't going anywhere. The Palestinians deserve to have their own country.
As soon as everyone comes to that understanding, things have a chance. But I'm sure we'll be talking about this 10 years from now.
4:48 PM Diane S: I think peoples' literal interpretation in God allows them to believe that the Jews have a right to that land because God gave it to them. It doesn't matter that the land was taken forcibly and I've heard reports that Sharon was saying one thing and doing something else, i.e. taking more land. If you use the bible to talk about morality, then morality should apply across the board. American foreign policy is the way it is because the people don’t care enough about others that don't believe the way they do to scream about injustices committed by this country. To me, if you are moral, this morality should apply equally across the board. However, this is not the case. Morality only applies to those that believe the way you do. Something is fundamentally wrong with this.
James: It's still not right. Because of this, I will still stand against the injustices committed against the Palestinians. I think we have a moral obligation to stand for what is right and not what is popular.
4:59 PM This is not a quandary for the Bush administration; and it won’t be difficult to promulgate an appropriate rationale for the election of Hamas in a "War On Terror" context. In fact, this will be used to justify their assertion that “these people are all terrorists.”
The Palestinians freely voted for an organization engaged in targeted violence against everyday people doing normal everyday things, at places like dance-clubs and pizzerias such as Sabarro. Ultimately, this election will not pose a problem for President Bush. In fact, I’m sure there are many officials here that are quite pleased.
One problem I seem to notice is that many people have no appreciation for what Hamas really is to the people that live there. We get consumed with our attempts to define others with language and concepts WE need to understand them and the world. I think many of use forget that in real life, what makes sense to us does not always make sense to others.
Consider this: When Arafat’s Fatah Movement was running the Palestinian Authority, unemployment in some sectors of society reached as high as 30 or perhaps 40%. We were declared to have entered into a depression at 25%, and we even named it The Great Depression. Today, unemployment at this level would be seen as a horrible disaster; and it would be. Considering your discussion on race, what do you think THIS society would be like under those conditions?
The average Arab on the street is no different than the average person on any street anywhere in the world. The average Arab is more interested in working, be that selling Olives or cleaning homes, than anything else. Everytime an average everyday Arab crosses the boarder into Israel and goes through the stress the humiliation of being harassed, THAT is what is on their mind. And THAT is what was on their mind when they were voting.
Hamas has a strong and stable network for dispensing public services. That fact is not in dispute. They are in reality the most efficient bureaucracy in the Palestinian territories; they have helped provide everything from healthcare to education. The content and quality of that education is OUR concern; the fact that their children get medicine and books is theirs.
Also, consider this: If you lived in a non-nation where you were under siege from foreigners and the only organization that helped your sick grandmother get to the hospital and sent your intelligent younger brother to school (the only one in the family with the chance to go), would you hate them? Would you hate a group that constructed an enviable (in their world) picture of masculinity, while fighting people you considered enemies? Would you hate a group that fought your enemies after your brother was placed in prison for several years because of some petty boarder incident that wasn’t terrorist-related?
My point is this: To us here in the U.S., Hamas is a terrorist group. To many of our allies, Hamas is a terrorist group. But to many Arabs who would like to live out their lives in peace, no different than people here in America, Hamas is the ONLY semblance of a workable bureaucracy that provides both services and security.
How are we going to convince people who supported an Arafat who was both propped-up AND vilified by The West that they should have voted for an inept and corrupt Fatah official?
Sometimes I think we forget that this is OUR “War On Terror.” If we are going to discuss fighting it, we should understand where their angst comes from. Because whether or not to continue fighting this “War On Terror” after we have the relevant facts in the proper context is OUR decision.
The leaders of this group are far from “crazy.” It is much to our disservice to misunderstand and fail to properly assess the source and reason behind the Arab people’s support of these kinds of organizations. It is a failure to accurately assess the people of Iraq that has caused many of the failures in the current war.
5:12 PM a confusing paradox: Amen, Amen, and Amen. I really don't understand how people can look at this situation with blinders on. This government has lied on every front and we still pick and choose the lies we want to believe from them.
6:38 PM @ Cynthia,
We discusssed this in email y'all. I agree with Cynthia that there are certain moral imperatives that must be followed across the board regardless of what anyone's Holy Book has to say.
@ a confusing paradox
Compelling points well argued. Thank you for enriching the conversation.
8:15 PM Confusing,
I don't disagree with you at all and I did mention that Hamas is more complicated than what we consider them. They are still a terrorist group by our standard but to many Palestinians, they are a source of hope and resources.
I'm just waiting to see how it all plays out because I think there is a lot of irony in this story. And I agree with Cynt - I've never understood our blind loyalty to Israel. Personlly, if it weren't for oil, and having to deal with Mid-East politics, we would treat Israel like we treat Sudan. America's only interest in economic interest.
9:16 PM Face in the crowd,
James I just had to respond to this post of yours. Bush is correct by not dealing with a terrorist organization. Iran has come out said they are very happy hamas is control, very scary. You are correct with stating that hamas will be forced to do want governments usually perform. You can’t blame Sharon at all. Hamas will have to disavow violence and terrorism period. Netanyahu who is going to be in charge shortly is not going to take any mess from hamas or Iran. Since hamas is now the government let another bomb go off you have a state to blame, they will be toast. And I support the State of Israel 110%. I have allot more to say on this subject but my bed beckons me. My personal experience gives some really good insight most people don’t have. Also Jews have always been in Israel. Look the history of the so called Palestine people the are mostly nothing buy Jordanians which used to be called Trans Jordon that was created by Saudi Arabia which used to be called Arabia. The Brits and US did carve up the middle east after the two great world wars, but those people were messed up long before we got there. To bad they discovered oil there, because if not they would still be riding camels and cutting each others heads off. Trust me on this issue I know what I speak about.
10:06 PM @ face in the crowd:
What kind of statement is this: “Too bad they discovered oil there, because if not they would still be riding camels and cutting each others heads off?”
Without even putting forth a position, I would like to pose several questions from the Arab point of view:
Since when did Britain’s promise to Zionists in late 19th century and early 20th century become authority over the Arab people? In the modern world, aren’t we suppose to accept the ugly and immoral nature of colonialism?
Who were the British to make such a promise?
Would anyone who supports Israel for religious reasons give the same support to Native Americans who “re-established” a home in Manhattan that was cleaner and richer than New York City? I mean, that is their ancient home and all.
Why didn’t the Arabs have a right to refuse Jewish immigration, as it was growing during the early 20th century, especially considering their protests after the Wailing-Wall incident in the 1920’s?
And please tell me why the Arabs had no right to refuse to accept a brand-new country in their midst in 1948? The presence of a people on land is one thing, a new nation is quite another.
I think it’s a fantasy to believe that the Arabs had no right to refuse anything, just because they “rode camels.”
If we can’t answer these questions honestly, or accept the inherent hypocrisies in their logical conclusions, then we can’t even begin a serious debate.
5:17 AM I'm surprised. I assume that most people didn't care. I may have to dig a little more into this issue. I have to admit, outside of a basic understanding, I'm not familiar enough in this to talk with an depth. I just think the Palestinians are getting a raw deal, I think Hamas will have to change its tune now that it in a governing position and I think Israel has to give up some land and allow the Palestinians to control their own destiny. Again, this is my conclusion with my understanding of the situation.
6:31 AM Great posts paradox. That has always been my problem with the whole situation with Israel. While I think that both sides have their issues. The fact is that the Jews were murdered and disenfranchised the worst by EUROPEANS. How do the Europeans atone? By shipping them off to the freaking Middle East. Wow, what a huge sacrifice by those noble Europeans! The biggest anti-semites in the world.
The Jews do have claims worth debating about their linkage to the "Holy Land" but that's an issue that probably needed to be worked out, not decreed.
6:33 AM And oh yeah, supporting democracy is only in the US interest for PR purposes. If our government had to choose, every other nation of Earth would be headed by a self-absorbed dictator.
6:38 AM James: It is America who needs to change its tune. The Hamas is helping its people. Isn't the nature of a good government is to help the people and give them hope in a hopeless situation?
Rashid:If you debate the validity of Israel's claim to the land, then a true debate about the validity of the bible will have to come in question.
6:46 AM I know that Hamas provides a lot of services but there is a certain reality that has to take hold. If you support suicide bombers and you are in charge of governing as well, then you have to take responsibility for the consequences of being doing both. My thing is this. Palestine has a legitimate argument as far a occupation is concerned. And I think Israel is heavy-handed in its treatment of the Palestinian people. But nothing is gained from suicide bombers. That is the change of tune I'm talking about. Of course, you do have Zionist that have no interest in seeing a Palestinian state. But that is where Israel must change its tune. You cannot have peace with over a million people feeling disenfranchised living in your midst.
7:06 AM In the Muslim mentality, there is no separation between Mosque and State. Whereas, the IRA, the ANC, and others, understood that you MUST separate your military wing, which uses funds for clandestine operations, from your political lobbying wing, this is something that doesn’t happen with Muslims at the moment. The base of money used for teaching reading and feeding children is used for military (suicide-bombing) operations. This is also why the Palestinian people will never believe Hamas is “just a bunch of terrorist.” In many ways, they are not.
Hamas now has to shoulder the entire burden, from garbage collection to politics; they have now become completely accountable. Their status as the outsider “speaking for the people” is now over; they now legitimately representing them. Who knows what will happen.
7:38 AM The modern movement for a Jewish homeland in present-day Israel gained legitimate speed at the end of the 19th century. Long before WWII.
When the first World Zionist Conference convened in 1897, WWI had not yet occurred. There was no league of nations. At this time there really was nothing wrong with aspiring to have a Jewish homeland. Even land by conquest was not seen as it had been immediately after WWI, and especially today.
At the time, the land now called Israel was sparsely populated with Arabs; there were no such people as a Palestinian people.
When the Zionists first came to Israel, much of the land was malaria-filled swamp land. Surprisingly, the first land they “occupied” was actually SOLD to them by Arabs who could not develop it, or no longer wanted it.
It was not until the Wailing-Wall riots in the 1920’s that the Arabs realized the Zionists were serious.
The British actually forbade immigration to that land by Jewish refugees. They ever formed a blockage to prevent such immigration, because they wanted to appease Arab anger, and of course keep the Arabs that had oil happy.
By independence time, it was battle-hardened veterans of WWII, and holocaust survivors that fought out the Arabs, with a whole lot less help than people think.
When the United Nations partitioned the land, there was to be both a Palestine and an Israel. The Arabs took their chance and lost. The Arabs tried to take ALL of Israel until the 1967 war. After that, they claimed the conflict was about territories and land.
Since then, the Israelis have consistently defended and fought off all invasions and built a viable and power country.
The Arab world has always refused to absorb the Palestinians. They do this so there will always be an argument against Israel. It’s very sad to see how horribly the Palestinians have been prostituted. But life is not cute. We ALL know that.
So ultimately, I would like to pose a question or two from the Israeli point of view:
When do a people EARN what they conquer?
When must a people accept the consequences of losing a war?
Are the children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, great-great grandchildren of a people who lost a war in 1948 still refuges? This is why there are almost 3 million “refuges.”
Here’s a bonus one:
If Palestinian descendants are “refuges,” are African-American descendants to share the same designation? If we are, we got them beat by about 37 million.
7:41 AM Nobody wants to admit this, but it is the Zionists that are the murderers/terrorists. What would you do if I took your house by gun point? Would you kiss me and tell me - you are so benevolent and right for taking my house and throwing me and my family out and now I can’t take care of myself because you have all of the good land? Oh merciful one! I know I don't have a right to defend myself after all you are the chosen of God and you are entitled to everything I have. You God said so - Oh merciful one!
The murder and theft by Israel must stop before there can be any peace in the area. We need to call a spade a spade and Israel is a spade.
8:12 AM good stuff. I read the 1919 decree in Paris where the Zionists essentially asked for Palestine but your post makes what I read a bit more lucid.
As for your questions.
When do a people EARN what they conquer?
Good question, I suppose it's when those that were conquered are completely exterminated and nobody has a bitch to pitch.
When must a people accept the consequences of losing a war?
See my last answer, though I would submit that getting over it as soon as possible is the preferable course of action.
Are the children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, great-great grandchildren of a people who lost a war in 1948 still refuges? This is why there are almost 3 million “refuges.”
I suppose that would depend on the definition of "refugee."
I found:
"an individual seeking refuge or asylum; especially : an individual who has left his or her native country and is unwilling or unable to return to it because of persecution or fear of persecution (as because of race, religion, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion)"
Well if the Palestinians don't have their own nation and the Arabs won't absorb them, I would say that an argument could be made.
If Palestinian descendants are “refuges,” are African-American descendants to share the same designation? If we are, we got them beat by about 37 million.
Compelling arguments could be made either way. I suppose the question is what significance would the answer have one way or another?
1:32 PM Cynthia, you mentioned the validity of the Bible in this matter.
Interesting question....
If one wants to study the Jewish Bible, one will find that it says that God gave the lands of that area to the Jews.
Obviously, this was written by Jews for the benefit of Jews.
But, even if one takes it as the true word of God and views it as legally binding....that same God, in that same book, told the Jews that they would lose the rights to that land if they did not abide by the laws set down by that God.
They did NOT abide by God's laws and were booted out and lost that land in the late first and early second centuries.
So even if you see the Bible as valid.....the Bible itself bears witness that the Jews lost their claim to that land because of their sinful actions.
(I doubt that their action of murderously stealing that lost land in the 20th Century endeared them to that same God.)
But most people think that to claim the rights to that land based on Jewish legends is downright ludicrous in the first place.
Either way, the land clearly belongs to the Palestinians who lived there for 1800 years after the Jews departed.
Those Palestinians were forced out by the Jews and British in the 20th Century.
Some history has been given on this thread....not all of it accurate.
Jews, for example, only purchased about 2% of the land in question.....and that from absentee landlords who had no interest in that land.
The remaining 98% is stolen land.
And.....conveniently forgotten is the war of 1938 in which the British and the Zionists teamed up to put down a Palestinian rebellion (against the forced immigration of Jews) in which many Palestinians were killed and all, all Palestinian leaders were exiled.
Forgotten is the fact that the British did not own the land and could not give it away to whomever they chose.
These British atrocities are carefully covered up and entirely overlooked by the pro-Zionist factions.
5:56 AM Anonymous said:
"""Wake up people we are at war with terrorism..."""
Wadena says: Wrong. We are at war with the mostly Muslim nations of the Middle East and have been since early in the last century.
Many thousands, perhaps millions have died as a result of our heavy-handed oppression and our attempts to set up puppet governments (as we are currently attempting and failing to do in Iraq).
The people of the Middle East have had enough and are now getting tough with us. Their dedication is such that they are fierce fighters who are not afraid to die for their cause.....and this makes them extremely effective.
And America is a FAT and almost defenseless target.
There is only one solution.
We must ask for peace, apologize, make amends for the past atrocities we have committed against them, END support for Zionists and STOP meddling in the Middle East.
Anon also said:
"""The terrorist hate Americans period. They don’t care if you are black, white or whatever they just hate freedom.
Wadena says:
Anonymous, you have it backwards.
The Middle East nations do not hate freedom.
They WANT freedom.
Freedom from our oppression.
And they don't hate Americans at all.....they merely hate American foreign policy that supports the evil apartheid Zionist occupation of Palestine.
10:35 AM Sorry about your bad experience.
Given that, it's strange you would defend the Zionists who have raped the Palestinians.
Go in peace.
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